Ashley Semmens is a former Royal Australian Navy Clearance Diver who served for 18 years, specialising in explosive ordnance disposal. He has deployed multiple times, including to Afghanistan, and participated in Australia's military withdrawal in 2021. After surviving trauma from an IED attack, a sniper incident, and a horrific shark attack aftermath in Sydney Harbour, Ashley was medically discharged due to PTSD. Now, he's preparing to swim the English Channel — not just any swim, but on his back, using fins. It's a fundraising mission for the Navy Clearance Diver Trust and a deeply personal journey into fear, resilience, and purpose.

In this episode, Ash opens up about overcoming fear of the water, losing close mates, post-service mental health, and how he’s turning pain into a platform for support and recovery.

00:00 – Ben and Tim intro the episode and Ash’s unique goal: finning across the English Channel 01:14 – Comparison to Sam Penny’s Channel swim (Season 1, Episode 27) 01:40 – Ash’s clearance diving background and fear of water after trauma 02:45 – Military and Afghanistan service; PTSD and recovery journey 04:00 – Ash joins the conversation, starts with early life and growing up in Adelaide 06:00 – Competitive swimming as a teen; early struggles and successes 07:45 – 2003: Racing against Grant Hackett at Nationals 09:18 – Backstroke vs freestyle debate; Ash’s short course gold medal (with caveats) 10:00 – Natural transition to the Navy from competitive sport 11:01 – Joining as a direct entry diver and diver vs boatswain's mate decision 12:01 – Clearance Diver selection process explained — 10 days of being wet, sandy, and psychologically tested 14:07 – What Ash learned about focus, fatigue, and resilience during selection 15:00 – 2009 shark attack incident: Ash explains what happened to Paul de Gelder 17:34 – Ash’s role in the aftermath: trauma from cleaning the boat, psychological impact 18:29 – Lingering fear of large bodies of water, even lakes 20:00 – Later incident at Jervis Bay: panic before dive leads to difficult team moment 21:12 – Realisation of responsibility and shame around not seeking help 22:30 – Stigma and lack of psychological support during service 23:45 – What clearance divers do: diving, EOD, underwater repair, and land-based ops 25:16 – How Ash ended up doing EOD work in Afghanistan despite being too junior 27:22 – Becoming the most junior sailor to deploy for combat operations in Afghanistan 28:46 – Motivation to deploy: “It’s like a footballer wanting to play a grand final” 29:00 – Getting targeted by an IED during deployment

31:30 About the Bushmaster

34:42 Pressure builds up

39:30 PTSD, cracks, symptoms and care

44:00 ‘More to live for’ – side story

49:10 Medical discharge… and there are no protective factors in the military uniform

51:00 Role identity fusion

54:30 Finning the channel- breaking it down

• Navy Clearance Diver Trust
• Paul de Gelder – Shark Attack Survivor & Advocate
• S1E27 – Sam Penny swims the English Channel

www.unforgiving60.com Email: debrief@unforgiving60.com Instagram & Twitter: @Unforgiving60

With thanks to: The Externals – available on Spotify

Jade MacDonald Razvi is a prominent Australian free diver and occupational therapist. She holds the second deepest dive in Australian history and recently won a bronze medal at the Free Diving World Cup. On this episode we talk about Jade’s growing up and freediving- how it works and how she trains.

As well as EH4AR (‘everything happens for a reason').

00:40 Starts with Ben’s hijack!

04:15 Jade on her lineage and growing up.

07:15 Sign language demonstration for the podcast audience

11:45 Jade’s swimming background- swimming into life! And swim times. And injuries.

19:00 What is an OT?

23:58 What is freediving?

25:20 Mermaids and Merbutlers

30:05 How Jade got into freediving and explaining competitions

39:00 How Jade rains for freediving…. without deep water.

46:30 Professional freedivers- are they a thing?

48:45 Breaking records!

1:01:33 How does Jade get herself through profound discomfort?

1:04:20 Applying a mantra and meditation in her diving

1:10:15 Can you lose the edge?

1:12:15 What is Jade’s limit?

1:14:00 EH4AR… Jade explains

1:18:20 Book recommendations and audiobook

1:20:45 Jade’s Power song and country music

1:23:25 Underwater predators

External Links

Jade’s Insta

Martin McPhilimey episode is here

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify

Mitchell Martin - available on Spotify

We first had the privilege of meeting Leigh Anderson on the 2022 Resilience Retreat and have been stoked to stay in touch from there – particularly so given the recent publication of his book, ‘The Paramedic Mindset’. In this episode, Leigh talk with us about that book, as well as his 14+ years as a paramedic. Leigh discusses the ups and downs of the role including not only the amazing lifesaving assistance he has provided on countless occasions, but also those rare moments when his best wasn’t good enough. Along the way, he’s developed some impressive practical tools for grappling with pressure, trauma and failure, which he shares with us as well.

06:00 Leigh’s backstory – paramedicine via a close brush with professional rugby league!

11:15 Ben reveals his ignorance and asks ‘what exactly is a paramedic?!’

15:30 The human side of paramedicine

17:20 What DON’T you learn at paramedic school?!

19:20 What technique does Leigh recommend to stay calm and think clearly during high stress situations?

23:20 How partners can assist in high pressure situations

29:00 The (often unspoken) excitement of a really nasty job…and how paramedics can deal with continued exposure to trauma

34:00 An alternate (and brilliant) definition of success

37:00 Dealing with failure – and growth from trauma

40:00 The perils of role/identity fusion within paramedicine

46:00 Leigh’s experience on the 2022 Resilience Retreat (on a related note, sign up now for the 2024 Resilience Retreat – 24-27 Oct 2024 in the Gold Coast hinterland!)

48:15 How does Leigh put trauma behind him?

52:00 What is Leigh’s powersong?! (Maybe not what you’d expect – check it out!)

External Links

Leigh’s website and Insta

Buy Leigh’s book or audiobook

Monica Lewinsky’s TED talk on shame

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify

Kat Rae is an artist who works across an incredible variety of media. Her confronting work, Deathmin, was recently recognised as winner of the 2024 Napier Waller Art Prize and represents the fourth time Kat has been shortlisted for this prestigious award. In this podcast, Kat talks about her artistic journey, including her first career within the Australian Army during which time she met her husband Andrew. Tragically, it was Andrew’s death that inspired her prizewinning piece and Kat very bravely talks to this devastating event and how she channelled this grief and frustration into Deathmin.

06:30 Kat’s background and early years – how she got into art….and the Army!

07:15 Some of Kat’s artistic inspiration included the ‘Angry Penguins’ – many of whom had completed military service

07:40 Art and Army – does that mix?!

11:30 Kat’s time at ADFA – the Australian Defence Force Academy

15:00 The Royal Military College Duntroon – not as much fun as ADFA….

16:00 Into the big world of Army – Kat’s military career, including a stint within the prestigious Australian Federation Guard

23:00 The tragic death of Kat’s husband Andrew

29:00 Kat discusses her Napier Waller prizewinning piece, Deathmin

36:30 So what is the Napier Waller art prize? And a little about Kat’s previous entries, including…

40:30 Cloud Slide, Coming Home and Reckoning

48:00 How did it feel to win on her fourth submission?

51:00 With all that she’s experienced – positive and negative – how does Kat now feel when she looks at the Australian Army?

1:02:40 What’s next for Kat – including within the art space?

External Links

Kat’s website – katrae.net

Kat’s Insta - @kat_a_rae

Kat’s 2024 prizewinning Napier Waller submission

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify

This week we host Bill Lennan who will teach us how to be 40% better! He was a kit who was introverted and had social anxiety.. so Bill built his own toolkit.

As Bills tells his story...

• Friend: How'd you get that role?
• Me: Talking with strangers.
• Friend: What? Talking with strangers is a gateway skill. It enables you to talk with team-mates, stakeholders, leaders, execs, and clients. It also makes interviews way easier.

Let’s get into it

04:50 Bill growing up… and Tim needs to grow up (according to Ben)

06:15 Bill working on cars- Ferraris and more….

07:30 More beautiful car ever made?

Ferraris or Lamborghini?

10:15 Life after playing with supercars

12:00 Introversion and anxiety- Bill’s toolkit

13:45 Everything is a system…. And so understand the mental models

15:00 Dialectical behavioural therapy

20:40 Getting use to discomfort- that is about growth!

22:50 Critical thinking skills- is this unsafe or not. How do you look at scary things?

24:30 The value in physical risk

29:20 Talking AI and software. The future?

33:11 The phones not the problem. It’s the absence of alternatives that is the problem!

34:20 Risks and growing up

36:00 Farming and how rural setting change our focus

38:15 Leaders- system, reps and recipes- ‘latticework’s’. The big models for leadership development

44:15 What is kaizen and why does it work?

46:30 Talking people and performance

52:20 Making tough and unpopular decisions- how to do it if we are overly familiar?

55:50 What’s in Bill’s library

1:00:00 Bill’s Powersong!

External Links

Bill on Linked In

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify

Tim and Ben love breathing. Not just for the fact that it keeps them alive (although that is undoubtedly a strong benefit…) but also for the opportunity it gives to tap into the body’s autonomic nervous system and impact its emotional state. In this episode, they speak with Martin McPhilimey – someone who was researching the impacts of breath long before it was cool - and find out how the differences between some popular breathing techniques and when these are best applied.

07:30 Breath as the ‘core of the dynamic interplay’ between mind and body

08:30 Martin’s background – how he got interested in stress, breathing and sleep

10:30 The link between breathing and sleep

15:00 The importance of being a scientist and a practitioner

16:00 How Martin starts with a new client

21:00 The impacts and requirements for oxygen and carbon dioxide within the body

22:00 What is air hunger, why is it so powerful and what triggers it?

28:50 The benefits of increasing our air hunger tolerance

33:20 Using wearables to monitor and improve your breathing

36:15 Martin’s take on the utility and applicability of some of the more popular breathing techniques, including:

37:00 Box (or combat!) breathing…

38:30 …4-7-8 breathing…

40:25 ..and could 4-7-20 be better than 4-7-8?!...

41:00 …the physiological sigh, and…

43:45 Wim Hof or tummo style hyperventilation techniques

47:30 What Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu can teach you about breath

51:00 Tips and trick for increasing our tolerance to air hunger?

54:30 Martin’s business – Performance Through Health

59:15 The Performance Through Health breath science certification

1:01:30 How to incorporate breathing techniques for children

1:04:00 What does Martin do for Martin? (Including his jiu-jitsu practice with Ground Control Jiu-Jitsu)

External Links

Performance Through Health

Martin’s Insta – some great stuff on here, give him a follow

Martin’s LinkedIn

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify

Dr Andrew Bengsen talks to us this week about controlling ferals! Animals that is. Andrew has over 15 years’ experience in pest animal management or research and has been with the NSW Department of Primary Industries, Vertebrate Pest Research Unit for a decade.

But also we discuss Andrew’s first career in the military- including serving in Rwanda over the period of the tragic and confronting Kibeyo massacre.

We talk about luck- both good and bad. And perspective.

As well as Andrews ‘role’ (very poor choice of words Tim) in the recent NSW floods, where Andrew’s family home was destroyed by the rising flood waters.

06:00 Andrew’s growing up and not finishing school. Joining the Army

11:45 Operational deployments being rare. Enter Rwanda

15:00 The complexity and challenges of peacekeeping operations

20:24 22 April 1995, the Kibeyo Massacre

24:00 Post Rwanda study … even without finishing school.

27:20 Being a bouncer in Townsville and learnings

34:00 Continuing study and enter into feral research (zoology and tropical ecology). The impact of feral animals and how we control them

47:20 Complexity!

55:00 Talking about the impact of the NSW Floods

1:01:00 The importance of community during the disaster

More on NSW DPI and Andrews Work is here:

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/staff/profiles/andrew-bengsen

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-bengsen-b7913a193/

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify

Mitchell Martin- available on Spotify

Ruth Clare, quite rightly, describes herself as a “multi-passionate human who doesn't fit neatly into a box!” Her formal credits include being a TEDx and motivational keynote speaker, award-winning author, embodied speaking coach, performer, mental health and child voice activist, as well as a qualified scientist with demonstrated expertise in authenticity, resilience and change. In this podcast, Ruth speaks with the boys about her traumatic childhood, which she captures in her truly moving memoir Enemy. But more than this, she also speaks about her growth from that point, and what she’s learned about the mind, the body and human interaction along the way.

04:42 Opening with a sobering quote from Ruth’s book

06:45 What was it like to be living as a child under the spectre of domestic violence?

10:30 Why Ruth wrote her book Enemy and what she’s learnt about some of the drivers for her father’s violence

16:30 Did Ruth ever feel safe at home?

20:30 How Ruth has worked to deal with the trauma that she suffered as a child, including focusing on her internal locus of control

27:00 Broaching the issues of PTSD with people who may be suffering…and the potential downsides of ‘trigger warnings’

37:15 Discussions on contemporary treatments for PTSD

47:30 Ruth’s resilience tools

52:20 Ruth’s power song!

External Links

Ruth’s website

Ruth’s Insta

Ruth’s book, Enemy

Contact Us

www.unforgiving60.com

Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com

Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60

Music …. With thanks to:

The Externals – available on Spotify